Living Fearless with Donna Winship: Identity Unlocked, Freedom Released, Faith Unleashed

On this episode of Hope Unlocked, host Kristin Kurtz welcomes Donna Winship of Identity Exchange for a powerful conversation on faith, courage, and living fearless. Donna shares her journey with husband Jamie Winship, their 42 years of marriage, raising a family overseas, and how saying “yes” to God has transformed lives across nations. Discover how identity, freedom, and trust in God’s voice can unlock purpose and ignite bold faith in your own calling.

Donna's Contact Info:

Email - info@identityexchange.com

Website - https://linktr.ee/identityexchange

Instagram

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Hope Unlocked
• 1:29 Donna's Background and Family Life
• 5:49 Jamie and Donna's Faith Journeys
• 19:27 Moving Overseas and Cultural Lessons
• 34:40 Learning About True Identity
• 48:09 Hearing God's Voice in Everyday Life
• 1:09:32 The Identity Exchange and Resources
• 1:17:12 Closing Prayer and Encouragement

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:16

Welcome to the Hope Unlocked Podcast. I'm your host, kristen Kurtz, and I'm also the founder of New Wings Coaching. I help and empower wildhearted and adventurous women of faith feeling caged and stuck, unlock their true purpose and potential, break free from limitations and thrive with confidence, courage and hope. If you're curious to learn more about coaching with me, head to newwingscoachingnet and be sure to explore the show notes for ways to connect with me further. Get ready to dive in as we uncover empowering keys and insights in this episode. So tune in and let's unlock hope together.

Speaker 1: 0:49

Welcome to the Hope Unlocked podcast. I'm Kristen Kurtz, your host. I pray this episode is like a holy IV of hope for your soul. Please help me welcome Donna Winship to the show. I am so excited to have her here today. She has been just one of the catalysts in my life over the past couple years, along with her husband, jamie, to help me move and live fearless. I call it fear lesser because as we journey we get fear lesser. So thank you, donna, for being on here today. I would love for you to share a little bit about yourself before we get into your story.

Speaker 2: 1:24

Yeah, my name is Donna Winship. Share a little bit about yourself before we get into your story. Yeah, my name is Donna Winship, and a little bit about myself. Wow, I don't really know where to start. Yeah, my husband, jamie, and I met when we were in college. We've been married for 42 years. We have lived in several different countries, raised our family mostly in Southeast Asia and the Middle East. We have three grown sons. They're all married and we have six gorgeous grandchildren, and we right now live in the Southeast United States.

Speaker 1: 2:04

Okay, well, I know your journey and for those of you guys who are listening who don't know anything about Jamie and Donna and haven't read the book that I have right here, called Living Fearless, I have noticed that there's a few people who haven't heard of you yet, so I know that that's going to change as time goes on. You could tell me a little bit more about just even stepping into this journey of you know, maybe being more public, because I know that a lot of your time, like you said, was spent overseas. Were you guys in the public eye at that time?

Speaker 2: 2:39

Not really, because I was before the internet. You know the internet changed everything about being in the public eye. We were very much not in the public eye. When we got married, jamie was in law enforcement. We're from the Washington DC area and so he worked for Metro DC very large police department. I was an elementary school teacher and just sort of what I would say living the American dream.

Speaker 2: 3:16

This was in the 80s and Jamie had had a few experiences. He grew up in a very religious, legalistic Christian home and had had a few experiences One when he was 14 in a movie theater where he had seen a movie that he felt really named him and it was a movie about a police officer. And then one when he was 17 after being in a wrestling tournament and hurt his knee badly and had to have surgery. And in the 14-year-old experience in the movie theater he wanted to be the kind of police officer that he saw in the movie, someone that not necessarily that person, but someone who cared about justice, that really did things differently, that didn't follow the status quo, that wasn't corrupt and that really changed things. And so then, when he was 17 and he was in the hospital because of his knee. His biggest concern is that he would be able to pass a police physical, and the nurse that was taking care of him shared the gospel in such a way that he had never heard. And, long story short, he was so angry about what happened to him that the love and the care that she showed him really overcame his anger, and he had just never seen that type of faith played out, the type of faith he knew was a God that was angry and condemning, and he always felt judged and like a sinner, and he never saw this unconditional, nonjudgmental type of love. And that was really pivotal for him. And so those two things really combined to make him realize that there's a different way to do things. And, on the flip side, I didn't meet him till I was in college.

Speaker 2: 5:39

I'm growing up those same years and I'm from a Jewish family, have an amazing backstory of my grandparents both escaping the horrors of Eastern Europe that led to World War II and just so grateful that they were able to get out and get to the United States. It's a miracle, really story, that I'm alive, but yet I was raised in a very traditional Jewish home, went to Hebrew school, had a bat mitzvah, all of those things, but yet it was very empty for me. The culture was very rich, but the spiritual part was very empty. The thrust of Judaism. The thrust of Judaism, I would say, for me was about keeping the traditions of Judaism alive and nothing about a personal God or a relationship with a personal God. A lot of it was based on guilt of realizing carrying this heavy burden of. Look at everything your grandparents went through so that you are free to be Jewish, and when you I went to a large public high school where there was, I had some anti-Semitic experiences and always felt like I didn't fit in, I didn't belong.

Speaker 2: 7:01

And when I was asking those big questions of life that everybody starts asking, why am I here? What's my purpose? Nobody could answer those for me. In my religious tradition, and the biggest one for me was what happens when you die, and nobody could answer that. For me and for your listeners, if you're familiar, especially with the Old Testament, there is no real explanation for heaven or hell, right? So nobody could adequately explain that to me and it became terrifying because it was something nobody wanted to talk about and it was clear that that dismissal of the subject was this there was a hidden fear around it, and so it made me terrified of death.

Speaker 2: 7:59

And you were in your teens at this point. I was in my teens, I mean. That started when I was a young girl, when you first become aware that you're going to die and like our dog died. I was about five years old, like what happens when you die. I didn't realize that's going to happen to me one day. And you know, I got answers like oh, don't think about that, let's think about your birthday, it's coming up.

Speaker 1: 8:22

Yeah, coming up, yeah, yeah, so you would. You say you're more of a curious person too, in essence.

Speaker 2: 8:27

I want to know the deeper things.

Speaker 1: 8:29

Some people don't.

Speaker 2: 8:31

I would say yes, and I've always wondered about that because I don't see in the rest of my family that spiritual curiosity. I'm the only, you know, believer in my family in terms of you know, following Jesus and believing that Jesus is the Messiah, even believing you know just the deeper things of spiritual life and I always wonder why am I the only one that has this spiritual curiosity? And I had it from a young age and nobody could entertain that with me. The subject would always be changed when I would ask these deeper questions about life. So I'm growing up with that and I get to high school.

Speaker 2: 9:18

I had some other negative experiences and I started to take on this identity of I don't belong, I don't fit in. I went to a huge public high school. There were very few there was a handful, but very few Jewish people in my high school and just never felt like I fit in. I didn't feel like I fit in at home, didn't feel like I fit in at school and felt very insecure. I had some negative experiences with teachers that shamed me. So then I didn't feel smart enough and I'm sure people can relate to this. You know you don't feel smart enough, you don't feel good enough. You don't. You know, you name it something not enough. And then you start to realize deep down inside that I'm just not enough and mix that with no belief in some person. I believed in God, but I just didn't know if he believed in me right, or if he even knew I existed, and then just the weight of that guilt, generational guilt from generations.

Speaker 2: 10:33

Look what everything the Jews have done to survive and you better make sure you hold fast to these traditions of Judaism. But if you don't have that deep spiritual, it's just legalism. You don't have some deeper spiritual connection to the God of Abraham, isaac and Jacob. What's?

Speaker 2: 10:56

the point right, and I didn't know anybody that had that. It was just legalism. And bacon sure smelled good when you walked into a restaurant, right, not allowed to eat that. Anyway, went off to college with all these insecurities and that's where I met Jamie, and he was actually the first person to ever share the gospel with me, and that's a long funny story that's out there on a lot of podcasts.

Speaker 1: 11:30

We'll have to link one of your favorite interviews that people can go back and listen to, because it is incredible. I mean truly like his hand on you being together.

Speaker 2: 11:42

Yeah, it's amazing how we met and the timing of that, yeah, but fast forward. Jamie was a police officer, I was a teacher. We were really living that American dream, you know, went from apartment buying our first house, selling the motorcycle because I'm pregnant we better get a car. You know things like this. And Jamie's fifth year being police officer, he was already a detective. He had won officer of the year because he was always asking this question is there a better way to do this? I love that. Do this. I love that.

Speaker 2: 12:30

Can I love people that are difficult to love? The way that nurse loved me? She didn't witness to me the way people in church witnessed to me by telling me I'm a sinner and I'm going to go to hell. She loved me into the kingdom of God. Her love overcame my anger and won me to Jesus and he had never seen that before. You know, we overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony, and that's how he overflowed into his police work. Can I do things differently? How can I not arrest criminals? How can I win criminals?

Speaker 1: 13:14

And so it's such a flip the script.

Speaker 2: 13:18

And I was the same way with my students. I wanted every student. I never felt like I had a teacher that cared about me and I developed this false identity going through school of I'm stupid, I'm not smart enough, but I was smart enough. But it's just. You know, we get a sense of identity from what we do, what we have and what people think of us, and that's really a false identity, because true identity, you're born with it. You don't necessarily know what it is, but it's something to be discovered and it's a gift from God and it's part of God. We're made in His likeness and His image. It's a facet of God that he puts inside of us, to be discovered through our lifetime. And I'll tell you this, kristen he doesn't make anybody stupid. He doesn't make anybody a victim. He doesn't make anybody hopeless. He doesn't make anybody hopeless.

Speaker 2: 14:28

And this is how I was feeling as I went through my high school years and into college. And, yeah, so we're living our life and I'm talking about the American dream, jamie's in his fifth year and as he's doing well in policing. I became a teacher because I was feeling I always felt stupid and not good enough and not smart enough and different in school. So I became a teacher because I wanted every single one of my students to feel like they were the teacher's pet. I wanted every one of my students to know that they belong. I wanted every one of my students to know that they had a safe place at school. Because my student teaching experience was in the heart of Appalachia, that's very poor mountain communities in kind of the southeast mid-Atlantic states. I'm from Virginia and the mountainous regions of Virginia, west Virginia, east Tennessee, and so a lot of poor, disadvantaged students. And, yeah, I just wanted every one of them to know that school was a safe place and that I loved them and they fit in here and they belonged. And then, when I taught them.

Speaker 1: 15:45

I share something with you really quick. You know I want to just make sure the listeners are catching this. So what you experienced in a negative aspect growing up, you know, in an environment, in school, you took something that you experienced and then kind of you're like I want to do something to like make this better for people coming behind me. I actually just watched a movie and I love, like the underdog movies, the overcomer movies. I don't know if you've seen this movie movie before. It's called radical. Uh, maybe it's. It's out of mexico and it's actually I had to watch it in closed captions because, or in English subtitles, I should say it was. So I literally just watched it this last weekend.

Speaker 1: 16:32

It literally sounds like it epitomizes everything you're just talking about, because my heart, like I love to see people out there, like helping kind of flip systems, like it's you know, know, jamie was out in government, in essence, like bringing his love and his truth to these spaces, like what you were bringing to, you know, the education system. Um, so if you guys want to go watch a movie, and even even you too, it's so good. I, I was just like, oh my gosh, it's like everybody needs to watch this movie. Um, a teacher out of Mexico and there's also another movie called a million miles away. Have you seen that one?

Speaker 1: 17:10

I'm writing these down as you're saying oh good, another teacher that like literally impacted somebody, and I think maybe a first grader, that completely changed the trajectory of his life and went back and was like you were the reason. So the reason I'm threading that in is because of what you mentioned about Jamie. You know this woman at, you know physical therapy. She wasn't coming with like a playbook, she was coming with like her heart and the love. And I mean because I want you to catch that with, like her heart and the love. And I mean you guys, I want you to catch that Like truly, and you brought that to the schools.

Speaker 2: 18:34

Yeah, yeah, so often we look for formula, right, we think it's our job to witness to somebody, and witness just means to share the same experience you've had. Right, it doesn't mean it's your job to save somebody by using some formulaic steps to it didn't work for me. Yeah, just what's your experience? What's what's been your experience?

Speaker 1: 19:02

yeah, and so, yeah, so I have to share that with you because I just really want people to capture, yeah, your experience and jamie's experience, because you know, sometimes people can gloss over these podcasts and it's just really important to like just fully be who god created you to be and go out there and do the thing.

Speaker 2: 19:24

Yeah, you know, every person that we encounter we can 99% guarantee that they feel stuck and alone. They're walking in a false identity, in a separated worldview. They're in the wrong worldview and by just giving them information about the Bible, about God, information doesn't change anybody's life. We don't see Jesus giving out information. There was actually no Bible. Jesus didn't have a Bible. People didn't have printing capacity for books and things like this. They had the Torah scrolls, but they were in the synagogues.

Speaker 2: 20:17

You know Jesus is going around facilitating spiritual transformation and information doesn't change anybody's life. It's not bad. It adds to your base of knowledge, but it's experience, it's an experience of being with that changes your life and that's what you're talking about Jamie being with that nurse and seeing Jesus. She was literally Jesus to him, she was an aspect of Jesus. It was her identity that she was giving away, she was overflowing onto Jamie and it changed his life.

Speaker 2: 21:04

And you know the same thing of what I'm saying about? I wanted those students to belong because I never felt like I belonged and when I met Jesus, I realized I didn't have to go looking for belonging at a fraternity house with people partying, because how long is that going to last One night. And how are you going to feel the next morning? Full of guilt and shame. Exactly Right, and, man, if we can get that young. I always say you can't give away what you don't have. Yeah, say that again you can't give away what you don't have. But you're only going to reflect what you have received. And I feel like most of my life what I was receiving was a sense of fear, a sense of shame, a sense of guilt. Of course, I had great moments also. I had a very stable family, great memories of going to the beach and you know ballet recitals and tennis tournaments and great memories of all that that you know formational, foundational years of development. But you know what sticks in your mind. All that not to get into too much brain science all those good memories are stored in your hippocampus, like in the library of your mind. But what you remember are these more traumatic memories. They're right there in the forefront of your mind, so that you know what to do when you encounter a difficult situation. That's how your brain works. It brings it up quickly so you can respond when you see a snake, when you see a cliff, when you're about to, you know, cross the street and a car's coming and so it's right there, you know. So you're ready to react, and that's why those traumatic memories, those feelings that we get attached to them, are so prominent and we feel that fear so often. And it takes a lot of work to retrain your brain.

Speaker 2: 23:14

But this is Romans 12 too. Do not be conformed any longer to the patterns of this world, not the world out there, the patterns of your world, the way you are thinking this is that repentance, which means metanoia, have a change of thinking by having the Greek word, have a change of thinking by having an experience of being with Jesus. This is the Greek definition of repentance. It doesn't mean saying you're sorry. We think it means oh, I'm sorry, I smoked a cigarette, oh, I'm sorry, I felt jealous, I'm sorry, I felt jealous. No, have a change of thinking after having an experience of being with Jesus and walk in the new way. And this is how we stop that anxiety loop, that fear loop that we learned. I'm kind of really going all over the place.

Speaker 1: 24:17

No, this is good.

Speaker 2: 24:20

Yeah, but I'm just saying that's what I learned through these negative experiences, especially middle school and high school, with teachers, with friends, with people who I thought were friends but weren't really out, didn't really have my best in mind and I'm looking for belongings, so anybody that would let me be in their group, even if it was a bad group.

Speaker 1: 24:51

Right, I get that.

Speaker 2: 24:52

Yeah, so anyway, let's fast forward. Yes, so we're going along living our life and Jamie gets recruited by the state department. We're going along living our life and Jamie gets recruited by the State Department. He's in the Washington DC area and they have all kinds of people scouting out the State Department looking for good candidates to do State Department-type work. He was interviewed it's a very dramatic story and offered a job to live overseas in a Muslim context to infiltrate radical groups and pacify them. I was pregnant at the time. I'm Jewish. He was offered this job in the Muslim world. I said no way. He said yes, we're doing it. And we laugh. Now we say this is the story of our marriage. We call it yo. He says yes. I say no, no-transcript.

Speaker 1: 26:13

Yes.

Speaker 2: 26:14

Yeah, complementary, right Exact opposites yes, complementary. And we did not actually take that job, but we did move to the country and do the work. We wanted to do it from a more kingdom of God perspective in Indonesia, and I took a job with the New Zealand government who was doing a literacy project out in the villages and we took our five-year-old, three-year-old and 10-month-old baby and we moved to an island that had 2.5 million people, predominantly Muslim, and I guess you could say we left the American dream, sold our house, sold our cars, yeah, yeah and embarked on a great adventure.

Speaker 1: 27:12

I need to go back a little bit. Okay, okay, he's yes, you're no, you eventually say yes. What was that process like to go from the no to eventually? Obviously you did say yes because you left. Like there's a process there that happened for you, especially because I'm thinking of the listeners who maybe they're in a marriage and they have complimentary spouse relationship, where one's a little bit more what I would say wild and one's a little bit more tame, right, and you know, I feel like there's a little bit of a story here that could really help somebody to maybe take that step. What would that look like for you?

Speaker 2: 27:56

Yeah, I'll go into it a bit. For Jamie it was a dream job. He was in law enforcement. He got promoted really fast because he's doing what I would call we didn't know at the time we wouldn't have used that phrase listening prayer Like thing but he was doing listening prayer and asking God. I'm sorry, it's okay, it's on Do Not Disturb, I don't know why. Anyway, he was doing listening prayer and always asking God. Is there a different way to do this? And he was solving kidnapping cases. That seemed impossible. This is before the internet, before cell phones, before GPS. He was solving these huge burglary rings. He was, you know he would invite gang members home for dinner. You know they would have this huge experience with God and change the gang, go home and, you know, break up the gangs and you know just really radical stuff he was doing. He got quickly Officer of the Year, promoted to detective. Then he was scouted out by the State Department, by the State Department, and it was a dream job for him and it was a lot of money, especially compared to a police officer's salary.

Speaker 2: 29:33

And I told you I was pregnant with our second child, very pregnant, and I didn't want to do it. And he really wanted to do it. And we're young, we're 27. Okay, we've been married like four years and I mean we were really young and, I don't know, naive, and so, just like any wise couple would do, we didn't talk about it for about two weeks.

Speaker 2: 30:01

We couldn't talk about it without arguing, and he was going through the motions of the process because of course, he had to go through applying and being interviewed and just not wanting to just say no right away and cut it off. But he listened to me. I mean we love each other, you know, and he always honored, you know, my opinion, but it was difficult for us to talk about, and so that whole application process and all took several months, a few months, and we were praying about it the whole time and during that time we had already scheduled to go away to the beach for vacation. And we went to the beach and my friend had given me a book to read and I didn't even know what it was and I just packed it, I didn't even pay attention to what it was, and we got to the beach and again we were talking to each other, but it was a little tense, let's say.

Speaker 1: 31:15

At the surface level.

Speaker 2: 31:16

Yeah, because it's just like the deep thing, like we couldn't talk about it without getting in a heated discussion. And we got to the beach and he's like I forgot to bring anything to read. Remember, before you could get iBooks or audio books, he's like I forgot to bring anything to read. Do you have a book? I'm like, oh well, my friend gave me this book and I handed it to him, again not really paying attention to what it was, and he started reading it and like he devoured the book, he couldn't put it down. And so we're sitting there on the beach and I'm kind of looking over trying to read the back cover, like what is this book? Thinking?

Speaker 2: 31:52

It was some spy thriller, which is what he likes to read, likes to read and it was called Through Gates of Splendor by Elizabeth Elliot, which in the 50s, her and Jim Elliot were missionaries. Some of your listeners may know the story. It's pretty antiquated now, but her and her husband and their team were missionaries in Ecuador to a Stone Age tribe in the jungle and they were martyred. All the men were martyred for their faith trying to reach this Stone Age tribe. And Elizabeth Elliot stayed in the jungle and she baptized the man who murdered her husband. He came to faith. I'm going to start crying. It's an incredible story. Read the book. But Jim Elliot was a deeply spiritual deeply, I don't know what that even means spiritual man, had an incredible relationship with Jesus and as Jamie was reading that book, there was a quote in there that said soon, this life shall pass. Only things done for Christ will last. And he had this realization that he wanted to take the job offer for the prestige and for the money.

Speaker 1: 33:16

That was the initial reason.

Speaker 2: 33:18

And as he read that book, he realized that he was made to do the job because of his love for people and that he had a calling, because of that nurse, because of that movie, to reach hard people that nobody wanted to reach, people that nobody wanted to reach. The movie gave him that passion for justice and not to be corrupt and to go after criminals, not to arrest them but to win them. And the nurse gave him the passion to not be religious but to love people unconditionally and to reach hard people. My love can overcome your anger. That mixed with my sense of calling of making each person feel special and like they belong. So think of women in a Muslim context who are often abused, often feel shame. And it was at that beach vacation where we came into oneness about the decision to go and infiltrate radical Muslim groups. But do it in a real way, with a real job, but do it for the kingdom of god, yes, and so that's what we did. We do read the book too.

Speaker 1: 34:47

Oh, I devoured the book, okay yeah, and you were able to bring your gifting into that first job oh yeah, because I worked in the villages. I loved it Um tell us a little bit about that. Um what did that look like to bring Um?

Speaker 2: 35:07

yeah. So, uh, jamie worked in university setting doing well we he yeah, he didn't take the job. They were shocked that he didn't take the job. Yeah, he didn't take the job. They were shocked that he didn't take the job. And we went to seminary for two years and, yeah, you look so surprised. I don't know that. I knew that Indonesia and we did language study for a year on one island. Then we moved to where we were going to be.

Speaker 2: 35:45

We had a small team of seven people and the men worked in the university and the wives worked in the village with this New Zealand project and one of the wives was a nurse. I was a teacher and I can't remember what the other one's degree was in. Oh, she was a teacher too. And, yeah, and it was awesome because the women, new Zealand was trying to help a lot of tourism, new tourism was coming to this island. It was very third world underdeveloped Tourism was coming to this island. It was very third world underdeveloped and the New Zealand government was trying to help them get their handicrafts to international quality, especially the pottery, beautiful pottery If you could see my house all these kind of things. And they weren't even literate in their own language and so I'm like adapting. We were fairly fluent in Indonesian and so I'm trying to figure out how to teach phonics in Indonesian, to help them be literate in Indonesian, before we could even teach them English so that they could converse with tourists.

Speaker 2: 37:11

But we became such good friends with the women that the New Zealand director had picked to run the project yeah, the director of the program and you know it was all these village women that would never have any kind of job like this and we would go out there three or four times a week and we got very involved in their lives times a week. And we got very involved in their lives. And you know they had all these practices, like one of the women who was the director of the project, a young woman. She had a baby and when you have a baby you go to the local for lack of a better word witch doctor and they believe evil spirits can get in the baby through the umbilical cord. So they take manure and put it on the umbilical cord to ward off evil spirits. Well, every baby gets sick and they don't know why the baby gets sick. So, to be able one of our team members was a nurse, so to be able to explain to her not to do this when she had the baby and to show them how to care for the umbilical cord so it shrivels up and falls off. You know and it was, she was the first person in the village to never do the manure, but it changed the whole village because they saw the baby didn't get sick and the belly button looked normal.

Speaker 2: 38:41

You know, just to have that type of you know, jesus cared for the whole person. He didn't just want somebody to pray a prayer and get saved, he healed people, he fed people. And we had the opportunity you know, in America it's, I don't know, you have opportunity for that, but when you're in this type of situation you have such opportunity for that. And then that gave us audience with the most powerful person in the village, which was the witch doctor, and of course he didn't want to talk to the women, but our husbands came with us. But our husbands came with us and you know we just saw miraculous healings and just so many things happen because of, and then we gave them a chance at a life with a job and money to get out of such a poverty stricken environment.

Speaker 1: 39:37

How long?

Speaker 2: 39:38

were you there? This is the kingdom of God. You know we were there for four years. Environment. How long were you there? This is the kingdom of God. You know we were there for four years At the same time your kids were there. Oh yeah, our kids would run around and play with the village kids chase chickens and and what an experience.

Speaker 1: 39:55

I mean water out of the well, because you know it's a hundred degrees there, you know instead of being at a splash pad, it's water from a well and they're splashing each other and you know yeah, it's amazing eating meals communally. You know, with their fingers rice and chicken. Yeah, you compare it to, you know, life here in America, even though they might have a witch doctor, like, are there things there that you can still look back on and say, wow, we can bring this back to America, like what we learned? Oh, it's simple.

Speaker 2: 40:30

I'd say the biggest thing is community, the value of community. Nobody, they don't even have. They have a word in the language for I, but nobody uses it, Even when they're talking about themselves. They just use their first name. They never say the word I, because there's no concept of individuality.

Speaker 1: 40:53

Interesting.

Speaker 2: 40:54

It's very communal, everything's done in community and I would say that, and even when we moved into the Middle East, it's the same the values of community, hospitality, general. We sit with people. These are the poorest of the poor people that live in huts that have mud floors, poor people that live in huts that have mud floors and they're sharing their food with me.

Speaker 1: 41:26

You know that's love, that's love.

Speaker 2: 41:29

Beyond measure and we have no concept of that here. Well, I've been to people's houses here that are normal upper-middle-class people, and I'll sit there for two hours. They don't even offer me a drink Nice people, you know what I mean Just they don't even offer me a drink, and why, I don't know why, but it's just. I learned so much about generosity, hospitality, showing honor to people, and that has nothing to do with the internet electricity you know, technology, it's the value system of honor that we are so lacking in, and community, it's this.

Speaker 2: 42:19

You know, muslims get a bad reputation because of terrorism in the world, but we have terrorism too, school shootings and horrible things. You know, only 0.1% of the Muslim world are terrorists and, like I said, there's Christian terrorism also. But the values in Muslim culture, you know, there's these pillars of core values, and one of them is honor. One of them is family, one of them is generosity, and once you experience that, it really impacts you. And showing honor means you never show up at a person's house when you go to visit without looking your best because you're representing your family, and you would never go to someone's house and dishonor them by wearing sweatpants and flip-flops and no makeup. Sure, like you wouldn't take the time to have good hygiene and put on nice clothes to not only show the honor of your family, but to show them honor. And you would never go to somebody's house without bringing them a gift, you know, without bringing them flowers or some chocolate or, you know, a bowl, a basket of fruit. It's so impacted me.

Speaker 2: 43:56

I can't, you know, I've been out of that world since 2016. To this day, I can't. If someone invites us over for dinner, I can't. You know, I've been out of that world since 2016. To this day, I can't. If someone invites us over for dinner, I can't. Can I bring anything? Oh no, you take a night off, I'll have everything covered. I still bring something.

Speaker 1: 44:10

Maybe it's not a contribution to dinner.

Speaker 2: 44:13

Like I said, it's flowers, it's a basket of fruit or both like, because the other value is generosity and we don't have this in our culture. You know, I read this book about this gal who went to the Middle East to study and it's a great book and I can't recall the name of it right now. But she had a little two-year-old son and she was living in Jerusalem, right near the old city, and the man next door, you know it's where there's a mix of Jews and Arabs and Jews and Muslims and Christians. We used to live there. It's very diverse and every day she would come out of her house and there was a man, a man, a vendor, selling like pastries on the street, which is very common and every time she'd come out of the house she'd have her two-year-old and he would put a little cookie or a little piece of baklava in the boy's hand and he loved it and he'd eat it and it got to the point where he was expecting it. He knew the man would do it, to the point where he was expecting it. You know, he knew the man would do it, and so when he would get to the door he would a two-year-old gimme, gimme, gimme. You know, I want the cookie, I want the.

Speaker 2: 45:27

And so one day, her husband she's American and so is her husband. One day, her husband talked to the vendor and said stop giving my son the cookies. You're spoiling him. He's demanding the cookie. He's demanding to come outside. And the Arab man said I will never stop giving him the cookie. I am not spoiling him. I'm teaching him how to be generous. I'm modeling generosity to him and I'll never stop doing it. I mean, we've lost that. We have lost that.

Speaker 1: 46:07

How can we bring it back? Like if you were to like somebody's listening. They're like well, what do I do? What do I do? Like well, we could use your questions that you guys both. What do you want me to know? What do you want me to do?

Speaker 2: 46:23

Right, yeah Well, yeah Well, that's if we get back to the story. I haven't even gotten into the story, yeah, of how we went, underwent huge transformation, but we do teach that now, asking God in your true identity, fully connected to him, to know and listen before we say, what do you want me to do? Because it's your being that informs your doing. We don't know how to act unless we know who we are, and we act without knowing who we are. So we're acting out from a source of fear, from a source of not enough and that generosity value you said. How do we get back from that? We live with a scarcity mindset because we're not fully connected to God, and so we live disconnected, in a false identity, feeling like there's never enough.

Speaker 1: 47:27

There's not enough time.

Speaker 2: 47:28

There's not enough money, there's not enough time, there's not enough money, there's not enough resources, there's not enough jobs. How many times do you go through a day feeling like there's not enough? And eventually, if you really think about it, it comes down to I'm not enough, I'm not a good enough parent, I'm not a good enough spouse, I'm not a good enough employee, I'm going to lose my job. All of this comes because we, at the bottom line, are separated from our true selves, which means we're separated from God. We think we know God, which means we're separated from God. We think we know God, we call ourselves believers, but do we really love God with all of our heart, all of our soul, all of our strength? Do we really love ourselves so that we can love our neighbor? This is the greatest commandment. How much time do we spend working on this? How much do you believe about yourself, what God believes about you? That's a question to repeat. Do you believe about yourself what God believes about you? Abraham did, and it was credited unto him as righteousness. This is the definition of righteousness that you believe about yourself, what God believes about you.

Speaker 2: 49:05

When Abraham, he heard the voice of God go to the land that I will show you before anybody. He was an idol worshiper Idols don't talk to people. And he did it. And then God said even though you're old, even though your wife is barren, you are going to be the father of many nations. And he changed his name. God gave him a new identity from Abram to Abraham, from Sarai to Sarah. And this pattern begins and we see it. It's not a formula, but we see it repeated, but we see it repeated. All of these people in Scripture walking in a false identity. They have this experiential encounter with the living God. Burning bush. He realizes who God really is and then he gets a sense of who he. You're not a murderer. You are my deliverer. Go and deliver your people from the hand of Pharaoh. And he's able to do it because he read it in a book. No, because he heard it on a podcast. No, we hear a lot of great things on podcasts. No, but because he had an experience.

Speaker 2: 50:35

God, what do you want me to know? Who do you say that I am? I don't really love you with all my do you know what? If we tell the truth, everything opens up. We pretend we love God, but are we really? Do we really, or are we? Are we afraid of God? You can't love what you fear. I think we're afraid, not the healthy kind of fear, the awe-inspiring fear, but I think we're really afraid that if we say God, what do you want me to know and what do you want me to do, he's going to send you to some foreign country and tell you to be a missionary and be poor. And that's Not for everybody. God wants to give you. I went to that country but I wanted to go. He gave me the desires of my heart. He made me to do that and it was the great. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I did it for 25 years in one, two, three, four different countries. Do you believe about yourself what God believes about you?

Speaker 1: 51:46

Yeah, when would you say you had that encounter and what was it like? Because for me personally you know I'm 47 now and I feel like 40. Something happened when I was 40.

Speaker 2: 52:00

I was 42.

Speaker 1: 52:01

I came out of the wilderness and I heard that still small voice for the first time yeah, that still small voice for the first time and I went through like talk about a metamorphosis, going in the cocoon and getting like remade. It was a wild and it was actually a pretty challenging journey of that death to self every day and hearing him speak over me and I feel like I've just I would say, in the last few years even it's gotten more solid. So could you speak to that? Because I know somebody, even like I'm we'll talk about this later but I know people in their like 60s, 70s who have really gotten hold of it and it's like it's never too late, it's never too late.

Speaker 2: 52:44

So could you talk about your journey in that it's never too late and it's a lifelong journey of discovery? The kingdom of God is a mystery, and a mystery doesn't mean you can't know it. It means there's this endless knowability or endless discoverability, and it's never one and done. You never arrive. The development of your identity is ongoing and God's always showing you more and more and adding to it. But I was 40, so we're living this life I'm telling you about, and I'm telling you the good stories. There's more bad stories. It was really really, really hard. There are more negative stories than positive stories.

Speaker 1: 53:25

Maybe I'll have to have you back another time. You can share the other part.

Speaker 2: 53:29

And it climaxed with my husband getting arrested and facing a 10-year prison sentence for insulting the Quran and Islam. And it's in the end, when he was at the trial, the main man who brought the charges wasn't there and a new person we didn't know walked in who had just come back from four years in the United States where he was treated wonderfully by some Christians. And Jamie didn't know all that, of course. And Jamie literally said goodbye to our kids I mean and me because we thought he was going to prison and they had confiscated our passports and I was facing being alone on that island while he was in prison. And this man comes in. We don't know where the man who brought the charges was and Jamie could have a lawyer, but we couldn't find a lawyer that would defend him, because nobody's going to defend the American Christian in the Islamic country. And the man tells this long story but in the end he says I was in America for four years and Christians really helped me. Now we have an American in our country and, even though he made a mistake, we're going to put him in jail. I don't think that's right, but you decide. And he turned around and he walked out, and then the man presiding over the case banged the gavel and he said case dismissed, you're free to go.

Speaker 2: 55:13

And Jamie freaked out. He thought the man who spoke up for him must have been an angel. And he ran out the door and the man was leaning against the wall smoking a cigarette, and so that blew the angel theory and he was like who are you? And he said did you see that empty chair? And Jamie said yeah, he goes.

Speaker 2: 55:35

That man was killed last night in a car accident and everybody up there is freaked out because they were very superstitious people. This is Indonesia, you know there's a lot of animism and he said so they're already freaked out. He said I'm the new guy that took his place and I saw this case and I flew here not to help you but to pay it forward and help the and, as a way that the way those guys helped me, they, you know we didn't know those guys, but it was kind of a pay it forward thing. And he looked at Jamie and he said I know what you're trying to do. He said I get it, but you better find a different way to do it because you're going to get yourself killed. And so that was a big wake up call for us and we ended up. You know, our visa ended and we left that island and we knew that immigration authorities would never let us come back because of that incident and we had a couple years in the States.

Speaker 2: 56:39

It was really a dark time for us. We really felt lost, we didn't know what to do and we ended up back in Indonesia a couple of years later, in a different island, and we worked at an international school and we were in a place where there were a lot of Western business people and a lot of missionaries because of the language, there was an adult language school and, uh, international school for kids and, um, we met some amazing people there. Prior to this, we didn't know anything about the kingdom of God. We didn't know anything about identity. We didn't know anything about listening prayer. Even though we were operating in these things, I was telling you previously, we couldn't have put a name to it or a label to it and we were still very traditional churchy Christians. Does that make sense? But we still were. You know, you still have a sense of calling and identity, even if you don't know it. You know a fish is a fish, even though they don't know they're a fish. They're swimming in water even though they don't know what water is right. So we met a lot of amazing people there.

Speaker 2: 57:57

Because we worked at the school, we knew everybody, because everybody sent their kids to this international school, and we met some people who were working with Muslims and Muslims were coming to faith in Jesus in droves, and so we thought they're doing something wrong. They must be syncretistic or pluralistic or lying about numbers. There's no way. And isn't it just so funny, human nature? We're not seeing any fruit, so we're doing it right. We're persevering for the Lord. They're seeing tons of fruit. They must be doing it wrong, right, so crazy.

Speaker 2: 58:46

Anyway, one of the women in this group of people you know we've committed our lives to this. I wanted to. I was tired of feeling embarrassed like a failure. You got to. You know, write letters home to people who are behind you and what you're doing and your church. And what are you going to say? Oh, by the way, my husband got arrested. No, he's not being persecuted, he insulted the Quran and broke the law, so, yeah, he got arrested. You know what are you going to say? So, one of the women who had this reputation for helping Muslim women come to faith in Jesus through dreams and visions, which was very outside the box for me. We were very conservative in our faith at that time.

Speaker 2: 59:43

I went up to her. I just met her a few times. I didn't really know her. She was about 20 years older than me I was 40 at this time and I just said to her you know, I heard you do this leave Muslim women blah, blah, blah. I said will you teach me how to do it? And she looked at me. She's like you should have these big blue eyes. And she looked at me and she said Donna, no, I won't teach you. And she just stared at me and she said you can't give away what you don't have. And she just stared at me. Our eyes were just like locked. It was uncomfortable.

Speaker 2: 1:00:22

And in that moment I realized, if you can't give away what you don't have, you're only giving away what you do have. And deep down inside, from childhood experiences, from my high school experiences, from failures in our first term, what am I giving away? Shame, fear, guilt, sense of failure. Fear, guilt, sense of failure, sense of not good enough. Oh, I was really good at faking it. I was really good at covering it up. I had lots of coping mechanisms, but that's what I was really giving away a desperation to help people, convince them that Jesus was the way, convince them that Jesus was the way, when I, deep down inside, wasn't even convinced because of all the hardship we had been through. Donna, you can't give away what you don't have, but I'll pray with you and as you experience Jesus in a new way, you'll naturally know what to do with the Muslim women you meet.

Speaker 2: 1:01:35

And so I said I said okay, and it changed everything. I started to meet with her and a handful of other women that were doing the same kind of work, and it changed my life more than my salvation experience. I can't even say how much it changed my life. That's where I learned that your current circumstance is not the source of your pain, but it comes from learned beliefs in childhood stemming from traumatic experiences where you took on a belief system and a false identity. You're in first grade, a teacher embarrasses you in front of the class and you take on this identity of I'm stupid and everybody laughs at me. So there's shame mixed with the I'm stupid. You go home and tell your mom and your mom says oh, she didn't mean it, because trauma is not really the incidents. It's your response to the incident, how the incident was handled.

Speaker 1: 1:02:45

Yes.

Speaker 2: 1:02:46

I'm making this up as an example. But if the mom had held you, comforted you called the teacher, made amends, had the teacher apologize probably wouldn't have had any trauma associated with it.

Speaker 2: 1:03:06

Yes, but this actually is the kind of thing that happened to me. I was always told you're too sensitive. Why are you crying? You know this kind of thing and that's where the trauma comes from. It's not the event. Two people can go through the same event, even abuse, abusive, physical type, abusive events. One is a total wreck as an adult and one person's fine because it's the response to the trauma that causes the PTSD.

Speaker 2: 1:03:36

Anyway, so they started praying with me and helping me realize that in the moment where I'm feeling anxiety, I'm feeling fear, I'm feeling stress, I'm feeling shame as an adult, it's not because of that moment I'm having a fight with my husband. You know I'm lashing out at him for some reason. It's because he's triggering something I already believe. I'm not believing it for the first time. I believed it because he's reminding me of my brother, who used to tease me mercilessly and make me feel right. I need to go back to that moment and let Jesus reinterpret that memory for me, Because he was there. He's always been there. He's never not been with us.

Speaker 2: 1:04:26

He has never not been with us. He has never not. He doesn't start being with us once we're saved. He has never not been with us. That's a huge key for somebody today. It is we think we get saved and suddenly he likes us good enough to be with us. He has always been with us. He knit you together in your mother's room. He is Emmanuel God with you. He's been with you every second of your life and before the foundations of the world. Christ died for your sins. When did he die? Before the foundations of the world. You've already been forgiven. It's a gift. He already loves you. You don't have to get it all together before he loves you.

Speaker 2: 1:05:22

So you can go back to those difficult memories and let Jesus reinterpret them, for you believed what the world wanted you to believe, what your brother wanted you to believe. What, wait, I don't have to believe that, jesus, you were there. What did you want me to know? In that moment, I took on this identity of stupid, because my teacher made me feel stupid. What did you want me to know and this is true because it happened to my son with the teacher. Oh, my teacher feels stupid all the time. So in order to make herself feel better. She makes all the kids in the class feel stupid. She's the one that feels stupid. I'm not stupid.

Speaker 1: 1:06:13

She feels stupid I'm really smart and you were able to process.

Speaker 2: 1:06:19

Yeah, that happened to my son and I processed it with him the day it happened.

Speaker 1: 1:06:23

And but, like you said, think of how many people I mean even me, like up until around 40 was when I started actually kind of digging into some of the childhood things, because a lot of us didn't have, we didn't have tools, we didn't have people to like help us process things, and it gets kind of stuck in here right, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:06:44

And to be able to walk through with somebody and, like you said, you said reinterpret, did you say it. Yeah, and to be able to walk through with somebody and, like you said, you said reinterpret, did you say the enemy is interpreting your traumatic memories.

Speaker 2: 1:06:56

It doesn't take any faith to believe the enemy. The enemy is in the world. Right, he is in the world. He's the father of lies, he is the liar and it's just the way the world is. And it doesn't take any faith. But it takes faith to stop and listen to that still small voice. And, kristen, that still small voice might not be a voice at all, it might be a picture, not be a voice at all. It might be a picture, it might be a feeling, it might be a sense. Not everybody receives the same and it takes practice to get to know how God communicates with you. And it might be a combination of all kinds of things and it might not come immediately. You might ask a question and the answer comes tomorrow. Tomorrow it might come through a person, it might come through a song. It's not this exact science.

Speaker 1: 1:07:55

But that was the moment, because, you know, I think a lot of people think it's going to be like I'm going to just sit here and this booming voice is going to come for me, and it's so different. I feel like as my like listening, and I like to call it like see him in the details and like hear him in the details. It's evolved because I'm so curious and I'm every day, I'm looking like, I'm always listening and I don't know if you've experienced that too, but it's, I feel like I see him in movies, like that movie I mentioned. It's like oh my gosh, or like songs. I'll hear songs in the morning when I wake up. It's I call it like a lyrical alarm and he'll be singing maybe even a song from the 60s that it's not a Christian song. Oh yeah, you know what I mean. So what would you say to somebody who you know like? How would you kind of activate them in that?

Speaker 2: 1:08:52

A great exercise to do is, in the morning, pray and say God, help me to be aware of your love for me in this day. And then you live in expectation. You're just expecting the Lord. This is Psalm 27. Expect the Lord, it says. David is praying and he says he longs to sit in the temple, gaze upon his beauty and ask him questions. And then later, at the end of the, it says expect the Lord. And then when you get to lunchtime, you probably get busy doing stuff whatever, if you work or if you take care of your children, or whatever you do.

Speaker 2: 1:09:39

Stop, take 10 minutes, just 10 minutes, and get a pen and paper and say God, where were you showing me your love today? Pen and paper and say God, where were you showing me your love today? And I wasn't aware of it. And write the first things that come to your mind. Because here's the crazy thing In 1 Corinthians it says we have the mind of Christ.

Speaker 2: 1:10:09

We have the mind of Christ. I think it's 1 Corinthians, but look it up, just type that in Google. But we have the mind of christ. I think it's first corinthians, but look it up, just type that in google. But we have the mind of christ. You can read the verse and so you're always collaborating with the mind of christ. So, when things come to your mind, pay attention, be aware, choose to pay attention. We have that's. I always say, that's your greatest superpower Choose, choice. You have the choice to be aware, to pay attention. And so take 10 minutes, god. Where were you making me aware of your love today? And I wasn't paying attention? And if you were paying attention, write it down so you don't forget it and then do it again before you go to bed.

Speaker 2: 1:10:50

God, the rest of the day, where were you making me aware of your love? And you'll see God in everything, in everything. Think of Mary Magdalene. This is kind of extreme, but in John 20, at the tomb, she thinks they stole the body. They don't know what it means when Jesus says in three days, you know this temple will. You know the temple will be rebuilt, they don't know what that means. You know, we know what it means because we know the story and she's at the tomb weeping. She is not expecting to see Jesus, Right? So we have at our company's called Identity Exchange, we have these core values, and one of them is look for Jesus in unexpected places because of that verse.

Speaker 1: 1:11:41

I didn't know that that was one of your core values. Yeah, that's one of our core values. Look for Jesus, I'm living it.

Speaker 2: 1:11:46

Yeah, look for Jesus in unexpected places. Because Mary's standing there weeping Woman. Why are you weeping? Because they have taken the body of my Lord. And then he says Mary, he speaks to her in her identity and she recognizes his voice and joy washes over her Because she realizes she didn't expect him. So, lord, where were you making me aware of your love? And I didn't realize it. And you'll just be amazed at just even the littlest things. And then you start to expect it and you'll start seeing it everywhere, everywhere, all the time. It's a great thing Like commit to just doing that for two weeks and see It'll change your life.

Speaker 1: 1:12:29

Yes, listeners, do it. Let me know if you do it. Let let Donna know if you do this. Um, somehow, some way, I feel like this is just going to be like it's almost like the joy will wash over you every day, because you can't help but feel that joy and experience the joy when you see him and everything Right, that's right. What is your favorite way to experience him, like what has been kind of a repeating theme for you in the way that he speaks to you?

Speaker 2: 1:12:59

You know, I have developed in my prayer life to realize that I'm praying without ceasing and that, understanding that he is always with me, I have every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. He'll never leave me, fail me or forsake me. Nothing can separate me from the love of God that's in Christ Jesus. I said this one. We have the mind of Christ and the way I experience Him is realizing that I. You know, there's times where I have to set aside time to intercede for someone or pray about a specific situation. But I have done that exercise I told you about. I do another thing every single day where I make some declarations, and I can make this available to your listener too. We call it the daily affirmation, prayer and at the end of it, god, what do you want me to know today about living in the truest sense of my identity Just today, and then write down what I sense. But I would encourage your listeners we have lots of resources on our website and you mentioned Jamie's book If they've never gotten that sense of their true and unique identity, to get a sense of that, because to ask, how can I live in the truest sense of identity and you don't know what it is. Maybe you would discover it just praying that prayer. That would be awesome, and nothing's impossible with God. He could reveal it to you that way. That would be amazing. There's no set formula.

Speaker 2: 1:14:48

Ask Him, god, the world I've taken on the names that have hurt me are I'm a failure, I'm not good enough, I'm stupid, I am a bad mother. I feel alone and powerless. I give them to you. This is what the world has called me. This is what situations have called me. This comes from things I've done. I give them to you. Who do you say that I am? You don't look at those things. Who do you say that I am? It's that simple. It's so simple. Just tune your ears to that still small voice that's already in there. Where is the Holy Spirit's in you, guiding you to all truth?

Speaker 1: 1:15:39

Yes, yes, it's the great exchange and I love just the identity exchange. It's where it comes from the great exchange and I love, like, just the identity exchange. You know it's where it comes from the greatest change. It's truly. It's that simplistic, like you have to release it, put your hands out. You know, let go, let go of that old. I like to say bring that identity to goodwill, like get some new clothes, go get some new identity clothing right to goodwill, like get some new clothes, go get some new identity clothing Right. Um well, donna, I would love to have you just share a little bit more about how people can learn more about what you do Um identity exchange. I know you have some resources. Um share whatever you'd like to share.

Speaker 2: 1:16:16

Yeah, thank you. Um, yeah, if you go to identity exchangecom, we have some classes and resources. We have a whole training path if you really want to get trained in the deeper concepts of identity, and we also have paid courses and free courses. We have a fabulous well, I think it's fabulous YouTube channel. It's just, if you go to YouTube and type in Identity Exchange, we drop new content every Monday and we've been doing this since January, so there's quite a lot on there. What else? Jamie's book it's called, you showed it. It's called Living Fearless by Jamie Winship, and we're both on Instagram at the Jamie Winship, at the Donna Winship, and that's about all I can think of so much for being on and you know.

Speaker 1: 1:17:24

Thank you as well. Um, I can say thank you to both of you for many people I know as well who've been deeply, deeply impacted and their lives have literally taken on a whole new meaning through truly like an identity exchange to live out the calling that the gods put on them. Um, see their gifts really burst forward right.

Speaker 2: 1:17:42

That's the only. That's the greatest thing I can hear.

Speaker 1: 1:17:45

That's the only reason we do what we're doing, so thank you, but we appreciate you and I'm like I said, I'm speaking on behalf of many. So one more question what's? What's something stretching that's coming up for you and jamie in the next year?

Speaker 2: 1:17:59

um, um, the most stretching thing I would say is um, we have a finished script for a pilot um TV show about, um, our life. The first it's a three season episodic TV show and we have a finished, we have an outline for the whole thing but a finished script and we're raising investment to be able to make that pilot episode. It's millions of dollars, I'll just say that and so really believing God that he wants it done, because the whole thing has come about miraculously and so yeah, hoping to film this winter, so for us we could put in the show notes if you, if you need people to donate.

Speaker 1: 1:18:55

I don't know what that looks like.

Speaker 2: 1:18:56

But it's not a donation, it's an investment. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:19:00

Well, I'm excited for you.

Speaker 2: 1:19:02

Yeah, thank you. We'll take all the prayer we can get.

Speaker 1: 1:19:05

I'm behind you, I got you back. So, as we close today, just, is there anything you'd like to speak over to? I do this for the one. The Lord had me to start this podcast for the one, for the one and for the one. So if you think of the one who's listening in today, is there anything else that you'd like to speak over? This one?

Speaker 2: 1:19:25

And then would you pray us out today, yeah, yeah, I'd like to just say that you're not alone and you've never been alone and your life is not hopeless and that nothing is impossible for God. And I think the word for you, whoever you are, is stop looking for a breakthrough. I know that's some of your language, kristen, but it's really a release. You just said it. What are you holding on to? That's preventing you? Just really. It's letting go, letting go of fear, letting go of, letting just go of fear. And there's people that can help you, that want to help you. And, yeah, just you're not alone. And just some of those prayer prompts we just talked about. There's free resources.

Speaker 2: 1:20:33

I'm not trying to sell anything, but we have a course that's free, called Finding Hope in Depression, and it walks through several listening prayer prompts, including the identity, how to hear for your identity, so many things.

Speaker 2: 1:20:50

It's 21 episodes. I just encourage you to go to Identity Exchange Under Courses, finding Hope in Depression, and yeah, and so, god, thank you so much for the opportunity to talk to Kristen and her followers, who are hungry to know you, hungry to know their true and unique identity. As it says in Isaiah 43, 1,. I have called you by your name, so you will know that you are mine and God. We all want to know that we belong, and so I pray for each person listening to this, that you would speak to them quietly in the night, in a moment where it's unmistakable that it's you, and they would hear those tender words of love and affirmation that you are with them, that you care about them, that it would be unmistakable and that they'd be able to receive it just deeply in their spirit, lord, and then just ask that question, god, what else do you want me to know about that? Lord, we just love you and we give you all the praise and honor and glory in Jesus' name, amen.

Speaker 1: 1:22:12

Amen, donna, thank you so much for being a brave voice. Who's setting so many free? I'm going to close with our anchoring verse. It's the may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace and, believing so by the power of the Holy Spirit, you may abound in hope. That's my favorite part abound in hope, and that's Romans 15, 13. So, thank you, donna, thank you listeners. I'll be back with another episode next week. Thank you.