What Every Parent Should Know About Trauma, Therapy & Lasting Healing with Mallory Kurkosky

Why do children leave therapy saying, “We just played”? In this conversation, licensed mental health therapist and registered play therapist supervisor Mallory Kurkosky explains how evidence-based play therapy helps children process emotions and experiences they can't always put into words. We discuss supporting teens who resist therapy, how parents can use validation and emotional regulation to shift family dynamics, and why healing often begins with the adults. Mallory also shares how EMDR therapy helps process trauma, what to look for in a qualified therapist, and the work she's leading through Refined by Fire and Embers of Hope to bring lasting restoration and hope.

Mallory's contact info:

Websites - www.embersofhopepc.org & www.refinedbyfire.info

Email - info@refinedbyfire.info 

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

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Welcome And Meet Mallory

SPEAKER_00 0:36

to the Hope Unlocked podcast. I'm Kristen Kurtz, your host. I pray this episode is like a holy IV of hope for your soul. Please help me welcome Mallory Kharkovsky to the show. I'm so excited to have her here today. We actually have been chatting quite a bit before we got started. And I was like, you know what? I think we need to hit record because we have a lot of goodness that's going to be shared here today. So before we do that, would you be open to sharing a little bit about yourself before we get into your story?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Yeah, yeah. So a little bit about me. I'm a mom of two. I have a six-year-old and a three-year-old. I homeschooled them, started that a couple of years ago, uh, which I love. I love doing that. And never thought that that was even a possibility. So that was one of those life moments that it was like a sharp left. At the time my husband was like, wait, what? And I'm like, I think, and but it all like came together so beautifully, just schedules, and like I think this is what it could look like that it was obvious that the Lord was leading us to do that. So I enjoy that. But I've been a mental health therapist for about 10 years now. And as part in that, I've been a registered play therapist. So I've seen kids as young as three years old, but I've also, you know, gone up to adults in their 60s. So I'm not necessarily limited by age. And so I became known more for kids and teens just because it's not very common for RPTs. And so that became a lot of my referral sources and stuff. And then I would end up seeing maybe their parents, and so I would see adults and do family work and things. So I supervise as well other play therapists because I love being able to help. I feel like I can impact more kids, more families, more clients through leading others so that they have their client list, you know, pass it on, and then they can, you know, help others versus me trying to feel like I'm having to take on all of the clients. So I also teach a class at at Bethel University intro to play therapy as part of their play therapy certificate. That's just in the fall that I do. And so I'm yeah, in the in the midst of transition when it comes to starting my own consulting business and mental health and and helping like businesses and and workplaces and starting a nonprofit that works with survivors of trafficking. So it's kind of a long list, but don't let that fool you. I'm not doing all of it at once. I feel like it's kind of like ebbed and flowed and is just you know part of it. And I think when people can hear the the you know, the list of like, oh wow, she does so much. How do you do it all? It's like I don't, I don't do it all. It's it's definitely the Lord leading me in seasons, like change throughout to be able to help me manage all of it. But yeah.

What Registered Play Therapy Is

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Well, I would love to, I I've never heard of a registered play therapist before. So for those who are like me who are like, what is a registered play therapist? Like, sign me up.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

I'm not sure. Yeah, is is a there's criteria and requirements that you have to, it's like a certificate. So you have to be a licensed mental health like professional. Well, you know, you have to be licensed with a board, and then you can you have to complete all of the the training and the supervision and requirements for play therapy specifically, and and the training and and education is vast, like there is a lot, but they say, you know, if you do 500 hours and you know, 35 supervision hours, you know, they have all the requirements listed. Here's the education. Then you can become a registered play therapist, which really shows. So for anyone who would be looking for like, I need a therapist for my kid, if you see the the letters at the end that say RPT, you know for sure they have had the education. They have had like the standards are high with the treatment that you would be able to get. There are other therapists who are like, I work with kids, and then it's like, yes, but are you doing so ethically? And you're not really doing play therapy, you can be harmful to the child if you really don't know what you're doing exactly. And that's not everyone who's not an RPT. There are some really good people, but it is something like the RPT just like guarantees like that is you know, the high fidelity. That's the like we there was a standard that was set so that it wasn't just anyone could see kids. It was just like, no, if you have this and you've done the work and the supervision and you know what what to do. So so I did that along the training when I was getting my license year hours for my LPCC licensed professional clinical counselor, is my license. And um, so I was doing them in tandem so that when I got licensed, I could apply for that and make sure that I have those credentials, and then became an RPTS, which is the RPT supervisor, so that I could supervise other people who are wanting to get their RPT so that they could have just really it's just like better care for kids because they really kind of get the short end of the stick in the therapy world sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

So, what would that look like? Because you know, I'm hearing like play therapist. What is a play therapist? What do you actually do with the yeah?

SPEAKER_01 5:51

So there are there are a lot of different evidence-based modalities, and and so it's been around for for quite some time. I mean, really, even it can go way back into like early 1900s, and so people have developed these modalities and then have done research on it. So there's like fair play and and non-directive play therapy and child-centered play therapy and experiential play therapy. I mean, so it there's a long list of all these different interventions. So you do have to know what you're gonna practice, like what is your scope? Because I can't be trained in all of them. So I would say I'm a child-centered play therapist and I like to do experiential. I've been trained in therapy, but that's not necessarily my modality. So if you if you ask a therapist, like, oh, you work with kids, what do you like? What do you practice? That also would be pretty telling because they should be able to tell you, this is what, you know, these are the methods that I like to use. This is what I want to do. If they can't really name any, then it's like, are you really, like, are you really doing it? Like, I don't think you are, um, which is not, which is not great. So yeah, so it is like evidence-based, like specific theories, specific interventions, and you really have to know what you're what you're looking for. You have to know how to recognize play themes from a child, what they're playing out. Are they healthy? Are they non-healthy? If they're not healthy, like what are we processing here? And and I can't never I can't ever say, like, oh, you're playing with a dinosaur, so that equals this, but I can notice themes of aggression, I can notice themes of death or loss, or you know, and I can help them process through that. And it's but it's important to know just the education around it because it does sound like you just play, like, yeah, I pay a lot, I paid a lot of money to just play with them. But and so it does come off that way, or when a kid leaves and the parents like, what'd you do? And they're like, We did Legos and we did some art. And yeah, but there's what are you paying for? Like they, you know, so you gotta know the. I talked to my supervisees, like, you gotta know the why, you gotta know the background, you need to know the like the importance of just your co-regulating with the child to keep them in their window of tolerance so that they can actually process the trauma that they have been through. So then playing in your office is not gonna look the same as them playing at home. Because at home, you got to do your parenting thing of like, we're not gonna shoot guns at each other, and you know, all the rules and things like that. But in my office, you can kill me and you can shoot the guns because that is a theme, and that is something, especially if you've witnessed violence, or if you know, because kids play out the things that they've experienced, and that's how they communicate. And so there's really no rules in the play therapy office. And so it's just allowing them to have a safe, contained space, then you can leave it and you leave, which is similar to adults. We're asking you to just, you know, process, leave it here and leave, and so kids are able to do that well, which is why it's important to have someone who really knows what they're doing, because it can be harmful if you kind of take it where it's like, well, it's not that big of a deal. Kids don't really notice because they absolutely notice, and they they do it, does impact them whether they say it or not. They may not know it on a conscious level, but they do they can feel it. So okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

So there's a there's a lot to it. Wow.

Trauma Story And Calling To Therapy

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Well, what led you down this path? Well, it's a loaded question. So yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Okay, well, I I had been through I've been through a lot of trauma myself and as a teenager specifically. It started when I was 12, and my brother died when I was, yeah, when I was 12, he died in a car accident suddenly. And and then after that, there was a string of just a lot of a lot of loss, a lot of change. I'm from Arkansas, so moving up here was in the midst of a lot of that stuff. So there was just a a lot. And at the time, let's see, I think I started therapy when I was I was probably like 15 or so, but super resistant to it at first, a lot of bias because being in the South, going to therapy, like there was a lot of bias, like you have to be like, you're the crazy one, like that's like doing that. Yeah. So there's a lot of stigma with it. So I pushed back on it. But when I eventually committed, which was not until we moved up here and was like, I do need help because I was in a dark place, very angry place, that therapy started to like help me and was working. And and there wasn't until there was still a lot of chaos going on, a lot of family stuff happening, but it was still helping me, and so I could tell a difference. So fast forward college, I still didn't know what I wanted to do. I went to U of M, then took a couple years off after that, and then started to feel the Lord prompt me and to like go back to school and becoming a therapist because I knew that I wanted to work with kids, just didn't necessarily know you knew that your whole life. Yeah, of like like I not necessarily my whole life, but probably as I probably in college, started to be like, I because I went for child psychology. Oh, you did. Yeah. So it's like I want to help kids because I went through so much therapy, it was helpful. And it is really needed. Like, we really need people to know what they're doing when it comes to working with teens and working with kids, and you can totally change the trajectory of a person's life. If we can work on healing now, we're preventing personality disorders and some pretty significant mental health issues. If we can get to it sooner, you know, the better. So I I knew like I wanted to do that, and then Bethel had a program that had some kids' classes, play therapy classes in it. And then I was hooked. I was like, this is it, just made sense. It just clicked for me. And I had a professor tell me, they're like, You really get it? Not everybody does. Like, there's there's a lot of people who really grapple with like, is play therapy really working? And I get where sometimes it doesn't feel like it, but I've also seen it do some pretty amazing things where when I can ask a parent, did this happen? And they're like, Yeah, how did you know that? It's like because they played it out, and this is you know, I can just kind of figure it out. And so it it really is incredible. So since like then it was just like I know that I wanted to to work with kids, I know I wanted to work with teens, and I knew that I if I had had someone sooner, you know, when I was 12, so like I know that it would have like who really knew what they were doing because the first one it wasn't, and I was tricked into it. It's like that's not a great start, that's not how you want to start anyway in therapy when you're tricked into it, right? So I do that, parents. Just yeah, don't do that, don't do that. I know it feels like we gotta get help, we gotta get them help, but like the only way therapy works is if it is reciprocate, like uh the client has to do the work. And I I love working with teens, I think partly because I like to be sarcastic, and so I like to joke with them, and yes, I like to do that, and I can be a little snarkier, but I can still hold that, like validate them and hold them to the line of like validation and change. It's balancing those two things, and they tend to they tend to like me. And so I I enjoy working. You're very likable. Thank you, thank you. And I would lead a group and stuff, and and I would see them change and I would see them use skills and and move away from suicidal ideation and and self-harm and and these things that you know they're grappling with at 13, 14, 15 of pretty serious issues, and then now they're using skills and and are doing better in school and and making friends and stuff that it's a pretty pretty awesome thing to be a part of.

When Teens Refuse Help

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Would you be willing to share? Like, I'm just thinking if there's a parent listening in right now that you know one of their you know, betweens, teens is is really struggling right now, but is refusing anything. Like, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_01 14:15

I would say the parent can get help themselves because that's good. We really minimize and underestimate the impact that our responses as a parent has on our kids that you can't force your kid to get help, but you can get help. So one that models to them, like, well, I'm gonna get help because I need it, like this is a lot, whether that's learning, so now you've modeled to them. Cause I've often like it's been here, you fix my teen, and they are refusing the parent is refusing, yeah, their you know, their own help. And it's just like, but I'm with them 45 minutes a week, you know, you're with them the all the rest of the time. And I think a lot of parents try to, they're trying their best and trying to respond, but sometimes we need to learn other methods. Sometimes we need to learn what validation really is, because we can get that confused where it's like, well, I don't want to approve of what they're doing. Well, that's not validation. So we need to learn how to hold our teens' emotions and our kids' emotions. And if I can't hold my own, I'm not gonna hold theirs. If I like think about your own emotions, you having a hard day. And if you have someone that comes up to you and just wants to talk about their hard day, more often than not, we tense up or we're just like, I can't, I can't do this right now. Like, right? Like, we can't do that. And and so many of us as adults are just living in this place of like no room for anything else. And so when our kids and our teens are not doing what we want them to do and they're having their big emotions, it can be either triggering, it can trigger us from our own childhood. It can, you know, we parent how we were parented. So if, you know, my parents didn't do a great job. So unless I actively do something different, which I had to do, then that's how it's gonna change. Like that's how I'm actually gonna be able to make change versus the kid needing to make the change and the teenager needing to make the change. Because so often I have had to help kids and teens just survive the environment and teach them skills, knowing that they're not gonna get better until they're either out of the house or the parents actually make the changes. And then it actually gives the parent also some empowerment of like, it's okay to ask for help and you need it because this is really hard to navigate and parent in our culture right now, and we don't have all the answers. And if like there's things that you want to change, like that's okay, and that makes a huge difference. That is when I've done DBT, which is called dialectical behavioral therapy, it's a very skills-based type of therapy. And there's dbt, there's dbt adolescent, and then there's dbt children. So I've been trained in all those different things, so I've used it with all ages, and it's used for the the most difficult, the most suicidal, like in and out of hospitalizations, aggressive behavior, all the different mental health things. That's what it's for. And what they did with DBT adolescents is they started including parents in the groups instead of just teaching the teens the skills. It's like you're all gonna learn these skills. That is when they noticed the most significant impact, the significant change. When I and I've done both because our clinic didn't do the parent piece the whole time, because I think it was a newer thing that they were starting to find more research on. So that the change has happened over time. So I have done both where I have just worked with the teens and I have just, and then I have worked with teens and parents in the group, and definitely the ones with the parents involved who were learning the skills for themselves as well, made the most significant impact and then changed the whole environment in their home. It's incredible. Yeah, it is, it is incredible. It's be and it's and don't get me wrong, like it was it, they're tough groups to run because like these are families that are coming in that have significant tension, hate each other. I mean, really, and now have to sit next to each other in a group with other families that are not doing well. And then to see that like they can barely walk in at the beginning, and then by the end, be able to see like this relationship take place and and be able to reduce you know, symptoms in the house and to be able to like we like each other maybe now a little bit more, right? Like it's not like a force, like, yeah, you're my kid, so I love you. But it's like, yeah, we want to spend time together, and because it's not constant fighting and it's not constant, you know. So the the parents learned how to respond and how to manage their own emotions. And so that's where I would start when you feel like you can't get your kid in therapy, is start with your own, like what are what have you been through, your own trauma? How were you parented for yourself? And is that what you want to parent? Like, is that how you want to parent? Maybe some that's like, yeah, they had great parents, wonderful. A lot of us didn't have that though, and so there's most likely things we'd want to change and not do, but because it was modeled, it just naturally comes out whether we want it to or not. And we can want it, we want, we can try to will ourselves. Like, I'm not gonna do that, I'm never gonna do that. But really, what can happen is either we can like overcorrect, and now we're, you know, now we're never saying no, and now we're never having limits because my parents were too rigid and too strict. So we're just gonna do the opposite, which is also not very helpful, or we do just end up doing what our parents did, whether we like it or not. And so there is still hope and a lot more hope, honestly, because I can tell which kids are gonna be in the longest, would it dependent on how involved their parents are and how their parents are willing to receive what I have to say and take the feedback and make the changes, because that's when the change is actually happening. If parents are not wanting to do that and they reject it, and then I can tell, like, all right, I'm gonna be seeing this kid for a really long time.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Well, I just want to say thank you for for what you're doing. Like, I like to say, like, our yeses have generational implications. So, I mean, this is just a very clear picture of that your yes having generational implications. Do you have any? I know you probably have to be very confidential, but is there any like people that you would like to share just a testimonial that you had that you work with without naming any names that you saw like a massive change, whether it's yeah, yeah, and I won't name I won't name any names.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

I do, I do have quite a few, but one that often sticks out to me the most was I haven't seen her in in years now, but I I saw I did see her for a few years, I think. And when I started seeing her, she she was struggling with suicidal stuff and deep depression and anxiety and and all these things. And she was, I think 19. And I think when she was 15, she was told by probably multiple clinicians, doctors of like, yeah, you have you have clinical depression, I think even dysymia, which is like the long-term depression,

Hopeful Outcomes And EMDR Healing

SPEAKER_01 21:32

and told it to her as if like this is just something you're gonna struggle with for your whole life. Yeah. And when she told me that, she basically, by the time she got to me, because she had been in and out of hospital, like hospitals and and other therapists and stuff like that, she had told me that. And I looked at her and I said, That is not true. We you do not have to be depressed, and we are gonna work on it. If you are willing to work with me, like and we're gonna work on it, you this is not true. And sure enough, a few years later, we ended up discharging because she was doing really great. And we had done, we had done some trauma stuff because we had to dig into some really hard stuff and taught her some skills of like how to manage things. And I think even in during that time, I think she had a suicide attempt. And so there were some there were some tough times in that, but she did stick with it. And in doing so, then made a huge where I was like, she's like, I don't know if I have depression, you know? And I was like, I know, because it's not your identity. Yeah, it's not who you are. And we do not just, I was like, you're by that time, I was like, you're like 21. I am not going to just accept that you are just going to be depressed your whole life. But a lot of people, that is, I mean, there are therapists who will see people forever because it's easy. You get paid, you know, you have guaranteed client, and therapists just want to validate and they're, you know, like, okay, I'm not that person. Like, I want you off my caseload. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

I don't, I really don't want to see you.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

I don't want to see, I want to work myself out of the job. And I would tell them that, especially as it would get closer to discharge, where I'm like, you're doing well. Like, this is I know that this is like it's conf it's hard in that like you work with this person, you know, for for years in some cases, and they know, you know, I know their deepest, darkest fears and secrets, and all these things, and we work through it, and then now we gotta be done, and then we're just done, you know. And so it is this really weird, you know, relationship. But I do tell them like my job is to work myself out of the job, it is never to keep you here, and I'm not a therapist that is just okay with seeing you just to see you and keeping you in a place of basically not being healed just so that you can have a therapist or so that I can have a paycheck or whatever that needs to look like. So, yeah, so I've had I've had multiple like that. I mean, I had another one where we did some EMDR, and I mean she had been raped and years later, still couldn't even go to the city, couldn't even go like just pretty significant PTST. We did some EMDR, and then she had no symptoms after that. So she could go to this, she could think about it and just like it happens, it doesn't erase what happens, but it it changes the physiological symptoms and how we feel about it, and we don't have to keep experiencing it over and over and over every time you've been triggered or think about it or something like that. And and she was like, I I think I remember her being like, maybe we just got a good night's sleep because it happened, it changed EMDR changes the brain and how the brain is able to it it heals it essentially, and so she was like, Maybe I just got some good sleep. I was like, Okay, look.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

So she thought she had good sleep tonight.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yes, I was like, Look, okay, you have not been in that city for like years and couldn't go past a certain spot and you couldn't think about it, like that's not true. And I was like, but I get that like it feels normal now to because you're not experiencing that, and so to help someone work through these all like significant, difficult, life-changing things to now like you don't have to live in that bondage anymore, and and they so many people don't have people telling them that, like it is just kind of normalized a little bit, and well, you have anxiety, you have depression, take this medication, the bird curse, yeah, yeah, and then people just kind of accept it, like oh well, and and I I'm the professional, so I hold weight in the things that I say, and other professionals in this field hold weight and unfortunately misuse it. And and not all therapists are Christian, so you know, they're they're not viewing it from a lens of like no, you can't be healed and and whole again and restored, and you know, they're not viewing it from that either. It can just kind of be like, yeah, you've been through a lot, so this is this is kind of it, or you have this, you have that, and these are like genetics, and like uh, like I don't I question a lot of genetic diagnoses because it's like genetic or trauma and environment. And like, what like and can we change? I'm gonna change as much as we can. Like, I can't change your genetics, but I'm willing to bet that I could change a lot of the things that you're experiencing because I don't totally agree that it's just genetic.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Yeah, well, I I love your heart, just the way that you operate in this way. There was one thing that you mentioned, like the EMDR, for those who don't know what that is. Is there a way for you to just share a little bit about you know what that might look like? Yeah. And then also just kind of bearing, you know, into like if somebody lives, you know, we're in Minnesota. If somebody lives in another state and they're like, well, I wonder how I could find a really good Christian therapist, like how could they do that?

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Yeah. So start with so EMDR first is stands for eye movement and desensitization and reprocessing. It's a crazy long name. That's why it's shortened. And it's international, like that is also evidence-based, research-based, and they and they started it by working with war veterans years ago, Francine Shapiro, I believe. And so she started to discover that like progress was happening in like one to three sessions versus a year of like talk therapy. And so because it it's it's bringing in the body and it's bringing in other pieces, and your brain's kind of pulling up images like a lot at once, you're not verbalizing all of that. And so you are processing and rewiring because it's lighting up the neural network in your brain, you're rewiring it essentially. And so now you're you're it's very intense because it can, it does feel like you're feeling the trauma again in a way. And so people have like thrown up, thankfully, not in my office. Like, I don't know how I would do that. However, one time she got close because we uncovered that she was sexually abused and she didn't remember, and so she was in her 30s, late 30s. That was another actually huge story of she's like, I can't really remember my childhood. I'm like, You're like late 30s, early 40s, like you should remember your childhood. Like, so that was a red flag, and we started doing I all I started with, I felt like the Holy Spirit was like ask her if she remembers the house, and she did. She like she was like, I think I have a maybe like suspect something happened, and I was like, Well, do you remember the house? And she could remember looking out a window or something. That was it. I had nothing else, and I needed more. I should have had like negative, like there's things that I needed to have for EMDR, and I didn't. And so I literally just kind of followed the Lord in that and was like, We're just gonna start there and just go with it. And in that session, she had a full-on panic attack because it was like it unlocked really just horrific things, but it was killing her body, so she was kept going to the doctor, and they her throat had been closing up, like just these things that were causing issues, and she can't figure out why. And we start doing some of this stuff, and her throat was opening up and she was losing weight. She's like, I've eaten well, but she was very overweight. And she's like, I've counted calories, I've done all of these things, like diets, like it doesn't matter. Like, but sit like doing EMDR, like working through the trauma was literally in front of me, changing each week, changing how her body looked and how she was able to experience and and experience the world and stuff. And so that was a huge. I've had many moments like that where the Holy Spirit is like, ask this, start here, because I don't know. And a lot of the time they don't know, they're just like, Yeah, I feel like I have these symptoms, but I still love getting to the root of it. And so EMDR is just one method that's not doesn't have to be the method, but it's one of that, it's a pretty intense. And she went through some really intense sessions. One session, she was just experiencing physical symptoms, so it wasn't even really memories, but I was like, We gotta allow your body to feel this because trauma is stored in the body, and so we have to allow it to work its way through, and that made you know some huge change. But those are weird sessions, like that. It's just like, wow, is this working? But she would come back and just be like, This has happened, and like maybe some things would come up because we can keep reprocessing. But it was it was incredible, just some of the and then that impacted how she's shown up as a mom and a wife and being able to work and operate, and so that changed their whole family system because she did the work, and so it really has this ripple effect. Generational, yes, it is generational, and then now you're passing on like the importance of working on our emotions. Now you're able to validate, now you're able to kind of hold that space because she couldn't, she had no window of tolerance to hold anything extra, but then had these kids who have special needs that have extra, a lot of extra things, and so she was just fried and burned out, isn't even the term of like to where she was at. And so I worked with them for a long time on like I worked with the kids and I worked with her for a lot of years, and so when I had to leave my clinic, that was a tough relationship to to end because she's like, You, I mean, I've helped significant life changing, but but really it's it's the Lord who just guides these processes to help us to to get through it. So, but she's one that it's just like, yeah, because healing can exist and you have been through horrific, horrific things. And we can still be, you know, be healed and and don't have to have that define you. So so EMDR is in you can actually go on their Mdria website, emdr-i a dot org or something, and go and you can search for an EMDR therapist because they can be certified EMDR therapists, and you can find a list in your state because it is an international organization because it's it's pretty big and stuff. So you can do that. There's there's other you can look up Christian EMDR. I mean, a lot of therapists can be on like psychology today and and whatnot, and you can search for for specific ones who will have the the credentials and may may say that they're faith-based and include spirituality. So that's kind of something you would want to look for if you're looking for a therapist and and ask them, ask them that. Therapist is really important, like that's an important job. And if you don't fit well, that's okay to like move on. Yeah, like we can we can say no, thank you. And and I've had that, I've had a few different therapists. Now I have one that I just go back to when I need to, whether that's a tune-up or I've had something you know new come up who I love her. And because my sessions have often included a lot of spiritual processing and and beliefs, and and I've seen, you know, just a lot of different things involved that I needed a Christian. Um so uh so that is important. So sometimes you can find you know Christian clinics and and you can just look up their bios and see like what is their credentialing, you know, do they say that they're trained in EMDR? Do they, you know, what what do they say that they're trained in does does matter? And then yeah, do you do you click with them? Do you feel comfortable and safe? Because the space is gonna really matter if you don't feel comfortable, you're not gonna dive deep into your deepest stuff.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

That's so true. That's such a key for people to to take it. I want to make sure that we cover for sure. Like, what what does the Lord have you doing today? Like, where are you at now? What's what's going on in your season?

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Yeah, it's a different season. It's a different season. So I am now have started a couple different, a couple different things. So one is called Refine by Fire, which is a consulting business because I have taken my skill set into like the workplace a little bit. So I've worked with child care center in the area that my kids were we used to go to and ended up, I don't know, I don't really know how it happened, but ended up getting involved in they hired me just some staff dynamics. And so I really enjoyed it, like being able to meet with people.

How To Find The Right Therapist

SPEAKER_01 35:12

It's very similar to therapy in that it's it's figuring out what's the root of the problem here, like what's causing the chaos, what's causing the conflict? How can we get to it and fix it and resolve it? How can we use skills? And so it ended up saving people from quitting their job. It like like so now those people are leading the center and stuff. And so I actually see them again tomorrow and I've gone back just for some extra, extra stuff that, but it's not as bad. Like it was on fire, essentially. Dumpster fire, and now it's so it's a lot better, and then teaching them just more like organizational structure and and just how do we handle things differently so you know, to change the system, which I really love. I I love changing systems because I know that it can impact more people. Yeah, and so I can start with the leadership at the top, you know, the the director and the manager and the owner, you know, people doing these things and they make changes and know how to set boundaries and know how to validate their staff and know how to do these things. Like you're gonna have happier staff, you're gonna have less conflict, there's gonna be less triangulation and gossip and all these other things that kind of can really ruin the organization. And so I've really enjoyed that. So Refined by Fire was started there, yes, with that.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Can I ask you a question about that really quick? Yeah, yeah. So is that something that you can just do in person or is that something you do virtually?

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Uh both. I could do both right now. They they're close, so I go see them in person and and and meet with them, but it could be both. Yeah, where it is, it's it's just taking my skill set, like it is therapy on a different level where we're not diving into trauma, but I am teaching skills and it's people. As long as you're working with people, like you're gonna have like you're gonna have some dynamics, you're gonna have some things going on, and we don't realize how much the workplace actually brings up our family stuff and our family dynamics, and it brings out our family role. Am I the oldest? Am I the youngest? Like that's what starts to come into our workplace, and we just don't realize it, we just do it. And so that's the stuff that I like to address and bring to like mind of like if you know this is happening because of this. Because now I've been meeting with them, and it's like a fun puzzle to me. I'm just like, I bet that this is like how it works, and then they're like, Yes, like that totally makes sense, like to bring help them come to the insight because it's so powerful, and then like, oh, I'm then I'm gonna stop doing that, or I'm gonna work on on this because they interested in, they didn't know. They recognize it and then they rest with it, yeah. Yes, yeah, so which is kind of like I have to ask certain questions, or why do you think that would be, or you know, which is really the Holy Spirit just helps me navigate that, but it's fun to just be like, wow, like, oh, I never thought of it that way, or that's all that makes total sense, or questions are mixing, yeah. They really are, and rather than you saying, do this, and you're like, if I have the insight, it's just not as it just doesn't matter as much, right? Because it's it's me, but something about when they there is a difference when they have it that I can just see it, and their face and their demeanor of just like they're just like blown away. I'm like, I know, isn't that like so cool?

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Work is that yes, yes, it's fun to watch.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

And then you have another avenue that you're so then I started a nonprofit called Embers of Hope, and that's it. Yes, yes, refined by fire is from Isaiah 48, 10. You know, how we are, yes, we're refined through our affliction and through our suffering, and that has been so much of my life and so much of other people's life. So on my Refined by Fire website, I actually started some merchandise and things like for people to buy sweatshirts or t-shirts or whatever because you know, have the the Bible verse on it. But we'll capture that quick if somebody's like, What's the website? Yes, yes, because and I can say because I have two, so I

Workplace Consulting And System Change

SPEAKER_01 39:20

can make sure you have both, but that's that one. And then Embers of Hope kind of branched from that into how can I work with survivors of trafficking? And so this is where it's another pivot in my life of like hard left again. Like this is like what we're doing. You're definitely a pioneer. Yeah, I know I noticed I've noticed that, it seems like. And so this was, I mean, honestly, I actually wanted to work with survivors uh since uh, I don't know, 10 years ago, maybe, but just never really knew how to get into that. So this this happened a couple years ago when I went on the missions trip to Montana and started asking them questions about mental health and just discovering how they were significantly lacking the help and the long-term restoration side of it. So a lot of what's happening now, because I've I've spoken with multiple different organizations to try to see like, okay, is this just the one experience? Like, is this happening universally? And I know I can't, like, I haven't spoken to all of them, but I have still at least talked to quite a few. And a lot of what's happening is the rescuing and trying to get the crisis intervention happening of like, how do we get housing and food and safety and you know, all those things that are the basic necessity? Yes. Um, but a lot of places, you know, cap it at maybe 90 days or maybe six, like they're just short term, and then you have more people coming in, you got to get them out. Like, how do we just get them a job and how do we get them moving on? Well, when I heard the statistic that on average they return to their trafficker seven times, I was like, we are not taking care of them long term. Seven times, seven times, yeah. Yeah. So it's astonishing, and that's what like I learned it on the missions trip. They had shared that, and I was be I was thinking, like, I know why, like, because they're not being taught skills, they're not having long-term care because this level of trauma is not treated in three months, six months, even a year. Like, this is long term that you need someone, but these places can't keep them for that long, and so we're they're really just trying to get them out and move on. Well, that's very hard to do. So, because you can't just overcome the trauma and the PTSD symptoms and all the things and the physical symptoms that they've experienced, just all the stuff. So, so my nonprofit is to work for like help that. So, I've I've contracted with multiple different clinics and therapists, one who are Christian and like just sound theology and that, and two are well trained in trauma intensive like interventions, so they know what they're doing. Because not all, not every therapist is trained in the same thing. I can have we all can have an LPCC license, but we did not all get that through the same training. So you and there's so much that you really could just like pick and choose. So, not all therapists know how to do trauma, but organizations don't necessarily know that. You just hire someone who has the license behind their name and doesn't always go great. And that's what I witnessed at this safe house. They had the turnover, they had therapy. I can't do this. Yeah, because you guys are not trained well. You you should not be doing it. And now you've caused more harm because now you've up and left, and just like everybody else in these women's lives, and so now we've caused harm because of that. And so I don't contract with any therapists, I meet with them, I I know most of them, and I make sure that they're actually a good fit. And so then they can fill out a person could fill out our quick form online, and then we can pair them with the therapist, one who would actually stay, could stay with them if they transitioned, if they moved, if at least in Minnesota for right now, and then they would be able to, you know, have care longer than maybe what their housing or their organization or safe house or whatever is is allowing them to have. So um, and then we could actually get to some deeper rooted, deeper rooted stuff. So so right now we can take the referrals of women who have insurance. Usually they have state insurance. The goal is to eventually get funded so we could pay for like women who aren't insured, so that we could, so that that's not a barrier to their treatment either, because that can be obviously therapy would be way too expensive for anyone to be able to pay for for most people, much less someone who's you know coming from that world. So Okay. So that is, you know, that side of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Well I'm I'm just as I'm listening, is there you know, if somebody's listening in, you know, either now or, you know, later down the road, like how could somebody come alongside and help you in this in especially in this aspect of is there anything that, you know, is there any asks that you want to put out there for for somebody who's a couple like just creating awareness for one can be really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

And not a lot of people know really about the long-term side of things. So we, you know, to be able to build on that of like, hey, we can't just rescue them. Like we have to, we have to invest in the long-term

Long-Term Care For Trafficking Survivors

SPEAKER_01 44:40

restoration. So awareness is really helpful. Funding is super important to be able to fund this. It's expensive to be able to pay for someone. That's why we can really only do ones that have insurance, but that's limited because they don't all typically have insurance. And and and I'm I'm trying to do more networking with if you know of organizations that would like, hey, they work with, because then we can partner with other organizations. Yes, how can we network and connect? So, how can we serve you? You guys maybe do the six months, but like, can we take it from there after that? And so if people know of like, hey, this could be a great organization, at least right now in Minnesota, but eventually it'd be great, yes, to expand, but it's definitely in Minnesota for now. But that can be really helpful as the the networking piece as well. So, yeah, those would be the top few I would I would say.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Okay. Well, thank you so much for everything you've shared today. Like, this has been so incredible. I feel like we'll have to have you back. And do you have you written a book yet? No, but thank you for thinking that I could. Like you guys. So that's true. A lot. You have a lot of you have a lot of goodness in you. Well, as we close today, I just want you to just take a moment. If you have any other words of wisdom or encouragement that you'd want to speak over, the one, because I I really do this for the one who's listening. I'll let you just take a minute to share that over that one who's listening.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

I would say that sometimes it can feel like you've been through so much that there's just no way that you can really get out of it. And the mountain

Final Encouragement And Closing Verse

SPEAKER_01 46:29

may feel really overwhelming. And and so it's it's it's not easy, but it feels easier to stay in in the yuck. Um, but I I recommend still seeking help. And and help can look like it can look like therapy, it can look like a book, it can like Christine Kane has good, like it can just look like resources, like starting there, but really look at it from a bite-sized portion. Don't look at the whole mountain, just look at the next step, and eventually you're gonna be up over the mountain. Like it's going to take time, but if we look at all of it all at once, it will be way too overwhelming. And that paralyzes us in this state of just like, I can't do it. There's no way, there's been too much, and it's just not true. And and our society wants to tell you, you know, and and try to keep you in that place, and we don't have to live there. And God doesn't want us to live there, he wants us to to move, and he also doesn't ask us to heal everything at once, like he doesn't ask a lot of us, like it really is just the next step. Like it is an onion that you're peeling back, and that could be years, and that feels overwhelming, but you're not in the same place for those years. You're moving. We do move forward, and then eventually you look back and then you're like, wow, because if in a year from now, if you are taking steps, you will at least move versus being in the same place a year from now, because it's still gonna happen. A year's gonna happen, and you kind of get to decide how how you want that to go. Like you do have a say, you do get a choice, even though it is a very, very hard choice. But we we don't have to stay there. There is there is actual, there is hope and healing.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Yes, there's hope, and you don't have to stay there. That's I love it. Beautiful. Well, thank you for being a brave voice who's setting so many free. That's the best way for people to contact you.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

Okay, yes, yeah. I I would say through email, I would say I I know I have a couple of them, but let's, you know, refine by fire. So it's info at refine by fire.info. And so that goes straight to me. I I don't have anyone else helping, you know, with that. Like that will give it to me. That would be the best form of contact for now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

Okay, sounds good. Well, I'm gonna close with the hope unlocked anchoring verse. It's may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. And that's Romans 15, 13. So thank you so much, Mallory, for coming out. Thank you. I will be back with another episode next week. Thanks, listeners.